In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Chris Voss about his experience as a hostage negotiator for the FBI. They discuss different types of hostage crises, along with many of the lessons that apply to negotiating in normal life.

Chris Voss is a 24-year veteran of the FBI and one of the world’s preeminent experts on the art of negotiation. He is the founder and principal of The Black Swan Group, a consulting firm that provides training and advises Fortune 500 companies through complex negotiations. Voss has taught for many business schools, including the University of Southern California’s Marshall School of Business, Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business, Harvard University, MIT’s Sloan School of Management, and Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management, among others. He is the author of Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On it